reasons for higher repair costs of high-efficiency furnaces

Herbert.Kocks · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 5

This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.

Are the additional repair calls a result of:
(A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
(B) poor installations by contractors, or
(C) incompetence of repair techs?

Thanks,
H.K.

Archived from group: alt>hvac

becauseofjunk · Joined: 11 Feb 2008 Posts: 12

>
> >This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
> >high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>
> >Are the additional repair calls a result of:
> >(A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
> >(B) poor installations by contractors, or
> >(C) incompetence of repair techs?
>

I'd like to add (D) Could be A-B-C but the real problem is that
thehomeowner is not maintaining the equipment and changing or cleaning
filters as per owner's manual guidelines.

Well, the cost of maintenance isn't more expensive, it is the cost of
repair. If maintained properly, this cost is offset.

There are simply more moving parts that are more advanced. With
technology comes greatly greater responsibility. The circuit boards
themselves liken to a computer motherboard but the relays and chips
are not changeable as they are on some motherboards. The variable
speed motor provides great efficiency but they themselves are
expensive...but they should last a long time if regular maintenance of
furnace is performed, and that furnace is of proper size and
application and the company who installed them actually reads the
installation and set up instructions. The gas valves are now two
staged.

In short, yes, if you have a problem, they cost more. They take more
time to troubleshoot and the parts are more expensive to their counter
part in an 80% furnace...because they are more advanced. Yes, some
manufactures have poor design, but that is designs for servicing not
life and performance of the unit (I swear some of these manufactures
install razor blades in there).

If proper application, properly sized, properly installed and
maintained, the energy savings will offset your repairs.

.p.jm · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 527

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:53:01 -0800 (PST), Herbert.Kocks@gmail.com
wrote:

>This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
>high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>
>Are the additional repair calls a result of:
>(A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
>(B) poor installations by contractors, or
>(C) incompetence of repair techs?

Yep.

>
>Thanks,
>H.K.

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geothermaljones · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 47

For the same reason the serpentine belt on a Toyota Sienna costs more than
all 3 V-belts on a 66 Cadillac...
technology costs & saves money.

Consumer reports spams Ford, Chevy & Dodge, but fails to include the parts &
repair costs for the Hondas & Toyotas ET.AL... in comparable terms
They also fail to note the J.D Powers reports showing consumer satisfaction
with Ford vehicles, in the past 4 years, surpassing Toyota.

geothermaljones

wrote in message@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>
> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
>
> Thanks,
> H.K.

Don Ocean · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 169

Tony Hwang wrote:
> Herbert.Kocks@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
>> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>>
>> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
>> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
>> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
>> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> H.K.
> Hi,
> All of above, particularly (C). When my furnace broke down within 6
> months after install, so called furnace tech. didn't have a clue.
> Wanted to replace logic control board on spec. which
> I myself pointed him what's wrong. Was under warranty but why waste
> a parts which could be fixed by some soldering job. Many auto mechanics,
> HVAC techs needs lot of training on electronics. BTW, I am a retired EE.
> Used to teach electronics to auto mechanic appretices. Replacing things
> are fine if they know what they are doing. They just doing it on the
> blind most of time wasting time and money.

Sometimes a board exchange is cheaper labor wise then soldering in new
components. New components also doesn't indicate weakened componemts
downstream either.. Which could trigger a second and third trip to fully
facilitate repair. As an EE, You should well know that! I would hate to
have you repairing my spacecraft. Even the Auto repair industry
recognizes that premise. I suppose you would show up at the job site
with an Oscilloscope, A Spectrum Analyzer and a signal generator.. Not
to mention a logic probe. ;-p

Tony Hwang · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 207

geothermaljones wrote:
> For the same reason the serpentine belt on a Toyota Sienna costs more than
> all 3 V-belts on a 66 Cadillac...
> technology costs & saves money.
>
> Consumer reports spams Ford, Chevy & Dodge, but fails to include the parts &
> repair costs for the Hondas & Toyotas ET.AL... in comparable terms
> They also fail to note the J.D Powers reports showing consumer satisfaction
> with Ford vehicles, in the past 4 years, surpassing Toyota.
>
> geothermaljones
>
>
> wrote in message
> @d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>>This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
>>high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>>
>>Are the additional repair calls a result of:
>>(A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
>>(B) poor installations by contractors, or
>>(C) incompetence of repair techs?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>H.K.
>
>
>
Hi,
Honda, Toyota? My family owns 4 Japanese vehicles, some built in U.S.A.
some in Japan. They just don't incur repair cost other than normal wear
items; tires, brake pads, etc. My Honda CRV brake lasted more that 120K
miles. Been a long while since I looked at any big 3's products. May
neber drive one of them again.

Tony Hwang · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 207

Herbert.Kocks@gmail.com wrote:

> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>
> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
>
> Thanks,
> H.K.
Hi,
All of above, particularly (C). When my furnace broke down within 6
months after install, so called furnace tech. didn't have a clue.
Wanted to replace logic control board on spec. which
I myself pointed him what's wrong. Was under warranty but why waste
a parts which could be fixed by some soldering job. Many auto mechanics,
HVAC techs needs lot of training on electronics. BTW, I am a retired EE.
Used to teach electronics to auto mechanic appretices. Replacing things
are fine if they know what they are doing. They just doing it on the
blind most of time wasting time and money.

Sid · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

In article
,
Herbert.Kocks@gmail.com wrote:

> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
The maintenance isn't any more than the old stuff .
Changing the filter kicking your ass?

> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
Cheap homemoaners who demanded high efficiency and then are too stupid
to keep the filter changed occasionally?

> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
How about great design to provide you with that high efficiency?

> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
Did you hire a contractor who did it right or did it as cheap as you
could find?

> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
You have any idea of the schooling it takes to put a trained tech on the
job? Do you have any idea as to that cost?

> Thanks,
> H.K.

High tech costs buddy. Buy a wood burner if you don't like it.

Sid · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

In article ,
Tony Hwang wrote:
> All of above, particularly (C). When my furnace broke down within 6
> months after install, so called furnace tech. didn't have a clue.

You got exactly what you were willing to pay for.
Or do you always buy high ticket services/ items with no research?

Sid · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

In article ,
"Jeffrey Lebowski" wrote:

> I just hired in another employee personal but i decided long ago not my gig
> to become filthy rich ask Paul at 11,000 acres ( in Wa. ) thinking I have
> enough
>
> He's a good kid younger than I like at age 20..an ex gang bangerkindof a
> tough guy.
>
> Give a man a fish
>
> Teach a man to fish
>
> But when presented with a young man whom is currently in trouble with the
> law and now teach him how to build and operate a fish farm that eventually
> refuses to sell to wal-mart
>
> As you can see, your below means almost nothing to me.
>
> Have a nice day Don

You gonna sing "We are the world" now?

Sid · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 25

In article ,
Tony Hwang wrote:

> Hi,
> Honda, Toyota? My family owns 4 Japanese vehicles, some built in U.S.A.
> some in Japan. They just don't incur repair cost other than normal wear
> items; tires, brake pads, etc. My Honda CRV brake lasted more that 120K
> miles. Been a long while since I looked at any big 3's products. May
> neber drive one of them again.

Change the oil ever? Have the brakes looked at? Higher cost for that
maintenance?
Some people people "don't believe in maintenance". Personally I like
these guys.
They stimulate the economy by wearing their stuff out faster.

Zyp · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 275

Don Ocean wrote:
> Tony Hwang wrote:
>> Herbert.Kocks@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
>>> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>>>
>>> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
>>> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
>>> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
>>> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> H.K.
>> Hi,
>> All of above, particularly (C). When my furnace broke down within 6
>> months after install, so called furnace tech. didn't have a clue.
>> Wanted to replace logic control board on spec. which
>> I myself pointed him what's wrong. Was under warranty but why waste
>> a parts which could be fixed by some soldering job. Many auto
>> mechanics, HVAC techs needs lot of training on electronics. BTW, I
>> am a retired EE. Used to teach electronics to auto mechanic
>> appretices. Replacing things are fine if they know what they are
>> doing. They just doing it on the blind most of time wasting time and
>> money.
>
> Sometimes a board exchange is cheaper labor wise then soldering in new
> components. New components also doesn't indicate weakened componemts
> downstream either.. Which could trigger a second and third trip to
> fully facilitate repair. As an EE, You should well know that! I would
> hate to have you repairing my spacecraft. Even the Auto repair
> industry recognizes that premise. I suppose you would show up at the
> job site with an Oscilloscope, A Spectrum Analyzer and a signal
> generator.. Not to mention a logic probe. ;-p

And the Manufacturer needs to know [during the warranty] when parts are
failing. If a warranty claim isn't filed, how do they know when to have a
recall. ?

--
Zyp

Zyp · Joined: 22 Aug 2007 Posts: 275

Sid wrote:
> In article
> ,
> Herbert.Kocks@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
>> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
> The maintenance isn't any more than the old stuff .
> Changing the filter kicking your ass?
>
>> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
> Cheap homemoaners who demanded high efficiency and then are too stupid
> to keep the filter changed occasionally?
>
>> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
> How about great design to provide you with that high efficiency?
>
>> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
> Did you hire a contractor who did it right or did it as cheap as you
> could find?
>
>> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
> You have any idea of the schooling it takes to put a trained tech on
> the job? Do you have any idea as to that cost?
>
>> Thanks,
>> H.K.
>
> High tech costs buddy. Buy a wood burner if you don't like it.

Quite honestly the new products are built well, and function without much
failure. [At least for our installs anyway.] After teaching our clients
the needs for an occasional once over visit and changing the filter several
times a year, the maintenance costs of the new products is considerably
cheaper than yestur-year. No oiling, no belts, no burners in fact. No
pilot. Just the occasional cleaning and filter replacements. Once set up
correctly, installed correctly, the newer products are quite reliable,
efficient, and cost effective.

--
Zyp

geothermaljones · Joined: 07 Aug 2007 Posts: 47

wrote in message@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.
>
> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
> (C) incompetence of repair techs?
>
> Thanks,
> H.K.

It occurs to me a "D" might be needed...
(D) Owner fails to replace filter on a regular basis...

Quit trying to blame every problem on everyone else.

If you prefer box fans & Fire pits, maintenance will be much more
affordable.
Your monthly utilities & your personal comfort are your choice.

Back when 60-70% furnaces were the norm & service calls ran in the
$20-$30/hr range it was outrageous... not to mention the smaller number of
parts.
Now when service can run $60-$100/hr & there are far more parts, it's still
outrageous.

Don't change oil & engine will die.
Don't fill tank & engine will die.

geothermal

Tom Beckner · Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 5

wrote in message @d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> This group of experts and Consumer Reports agree that
> high-efficiency gas furnaces are more expensive to maintain.

Ok, although I don't see what group of experts you're
referencing.

> Are the additional repair calls a result of:
> (A) poor design by the manufacturers, or
> (B) poor installations by contractors, or
> (C) incompetence of repair techs?

Are you asking a question or making a speech?

In the mechanical world, there is no free lunch.

Increased efficiency has a price. The idea is to be
able to determine the utility of increased efficiency,
then make the judgment about it's value.

Tom Beckner